“Nothing's Really for Certain.”: Two NYC Students on How College Vaccine Mandates Affect Their Lives and Their Futures

As some COVID-19 vaccine mandates end, many colleges have kept theirs in place. The restrictions affect both college students and high schoolers trying to plan the next phase of their lives.

In this interview, which is part of the New York Mandate Podcast series, I talk with two New York City students and their mother. One of the students goes to a public high school and the other to a City University of New York (CUNY) community college. Both face barriers to pursuing a college education because they have not taken a COVID-19 vaccine and vaccination requirements remain in place at CUNY schools and other colleges.

The students talked with me about how vaccine mandates affect their education, what it’s like to attend school remotely, and how pandemic policies have affected young people. They also talked about their views on broader questions about public health policy, the role of technology in their life, and what their hopes and fears about the future are.

You can read our conversation here, or if you prefer audio, you can download the Substack app for iOS or Android and listen to it with Substack’s automated text-to-speech player. Just click the headphone icon at the top of the screen.

Aimee: Where are you in your student years, and how long have you been dealing with mandates?

T.A.: I'm in my sophomore year of college at BMCC, but I've been dealing with mandate issues I guess since towards the end of senior year, which would've been over two years ago.

Aimee: When you were a senior, how did that come up?

T.A.: Senior year was complicated because COVID happened at the end of my junior year, and then the vaccine started being made, like halfway into my senior year. And senior year was already complicated. I was doing it online because they had all these confusing things, like multiple school groups. It was just all complicated, so I decided to do senior year from home.

Mom: Graduation was when it first started. You needed to be vaccinated to go to your graduation.

T.A: Oh yeah, we needed to be vaccinated to go to graduation. But then obviously that didn't work, because we went anyways. We had to test.

Aimee: So they had some kind of test-or-vax rule set up?

T.A: Yeah.

S.N.: I'm a junior in high school currently. I think I was mainly affected during sophomore year. I think that was when vaccines started to come out, around that time. And in order to go to some programs, I needed to be vaccinated to attend. I was only excluded from one event, but still.

Aimee:  Was this for things like sports and clubs?

S.N.: Yeah.

Aimee: You're looking at colleges now, right?

S.N.: Yeah.

T.A.: It’s very limited, because you start touring next year, right?

S.N.: I should be touring now.

T.A.: Yeah, but they don't allow unvaccinated kids on the tour, so she can't tour. And then even if she could tour, mandates are in for her to go there, so she can't even go there as well, unless she figures out some way to do it online.

Aimee: Did you start thinking about colleges during the pandemic, before mandates were an issue? Did you have your eye on different places?

S.N.: During middle school, during eighth grade, our counselor would talk to us about it. I wasn't really serious about looking into different colleges until I think sophomore year, because I was still thinking that I had time and I had other priorities to focus on. It wasn't major at that time, but now since I have one year left of high school, I’ve needed to start looking at colleges. That's when the vaccine started to become an issue for me.

Aimee: T.A., did the mandates change your plan from the beginning?

T.A.: Yes. I got into BMCC, and the vaccines were out, but I had signed up for two in-person courses to try and get back into going in person. So I'd set up my whole schedule around that, and then by the end of summer, they were going to make the mandates a thing, like it’s mandated to get the vaccine if you wanted to go to school in person. And so I had to rearrange my whole schedule to fit that. It kind of worked out, but it was kind of annoying that I had to go through the whole scheduling process twice.

Then right before school started, like a day before, one of the classes got completely cut because something happened to the teacher. And then every semester I've had issues since with scheduling. This last semester I had to figure out some sort of way to take all my art classes because they were all in person, which is understandable because art is better in person, but it was all mandated. So I had to find a way to just get credit for taking other classes, because the classes that I needed to take that were required, I couldn't take them in person because of the mandates.

Aimee: So you were able to fulfill the requirement with some other type of class?

T.A.: Yeah.

Aimee: What are you majoring in?

T.A.: I'm an art studio major and it was a basic class, like foundations, and I switched it out for two art history classes and my comic class. Being in school and having all these mishaps—I've kind of gone from illustration in general to branch out into other things.

Aimee: Is that what you're mainly focused on—2D art?

T.A.: Originally when I came to BMCC, I was like a paper dude. I liked drawing on paper. And then, because I've had to take so many different classes and they have so many different classes, I could go into animation, and I've learned some game design type stuff.

Aimee: Art seems like a subject where you would really want to have in-person classes, at least for some media.

T.A.: Yeah. It got in the way quite a bit, which is understandable, like I said, but still it kind of got in the way. And then I had to take two classes over the summer, which most students didn't have to do, kind of to keep up. Because I didn't want any wasted time. I wanted to graduate.

I go to community college, and you have this two-year program and then right after the two years you can transfer anywhere, to any CUNY school, if you get good grades. And so I've worked on that and I’m going to be able to at least get my degree, my two-year degree. But the mandates are keeping me from possibly going to a four-year.

Aimee: Why does it keep you from going to a four-year?

T.A.: Because they've got the mandates and then you’ve got to get either vaccinated or figure out a religious exemption or medical exemption. And they've previously denied my medical exemption because they didn't read through it all the way. So we've got to redo that.

Aimee:  So at the places where you would want to go for a four-year, you can't just do it all online?

T.A.: Yeah. It would be very hard to graduate from a four-year just doing strictly online. Just like how it got in my way here, and I couldn't take certain classes.

Aimee: Your initial choice of BMCC—that was a choice you made before all of this happened?

T.A.: I applied to multiple schools, but BMCC is sort of where I . . . because in high school you kind of slack off and then you pay the price by going to community college. But community college actually is not that bad.

Aimee: So aside from these mandate issues, you're finding the education pretty decent?

T.A.: Yeah.

Aimee: So that didn't really affect your choice of school, but now it will.

T.A.: It would've gotten in the way, let's say if I had gotten into a place like FIT. I probably couldn't have gone, considering the mandates are still in effect and I applied to colleges in 2021. I would've had to figure out some way, like a religious exemption or a medical exemption.

Aimee: So it just kind of worked out that a place that you got into was flexible enough that you could go there?

T.A.: Yeah, they've been pretty understanding, but it's still kind of annoying that I have so many complications every semester.

Aimee: Do either of you want to talk about why you don't want to take the vaccine?

T.A.: For me it's that I had a little heart issue when I was born, and even my doctor has kind of said, “Yeah, since you've had—I forget the exact name—it wouldn't be  wise to take it per se. That's one of the reasons. Also, I've heard of some complications with it, and health is everything. I don't want to risk anything. I'm healthy now.

S.N.: My major two reasons for not taking the vaccine: The first one is that I get a lot of allergies or infections. I'm allergic to strawberries, Band-Aids . . . I'm allergic to everything.  Sunscreen. So when I also heard, from my mom, that there was a possibility that I could be hurt from the vaccines, like people having heart issues or people experiencing allergic reactions, I'm like, “Oh no, I'm probably going to get an allergic reaction as well, knowing my luck.”

Aimee: Sometimes when I’ve talked to students, I've found them to be very supportive of mandates. Some college students in New York have told me, “Yeah, everybody's fine with it and it's something that everybody should do.” What do you find the opinion to be in general among your peers?

T.A.: I think a lot of people in my age group kind of just go with whatever's on media. If I didn't have my mom and I'm just reading the stuff I see on Instagram or Twitter or whatever, especially here in New York you see a lot of bias. I'm online, so in school, the students that I do the classes with, we don't really talk about that because we're kind of just there to get the credit and then go.

I haven't had any negative stuff. When I told my advisor that that's the reason I'm so keen on going online, he didn't really seem to have an issue with it. But yeah, I think if I were to say I'm unvaccinated—a lot of the kids and adults don't do the same reading that kind of gives you that awareness. So that's why they're so negative towards unvaccinated people.

Aimee: So you think that people your age are mostly supportive of it?

T.A.: Yeah. I think they're heavily influenced by the environment around them, which is their phone.

Aimee: What media do you look at? Older people like me hear, “The kids are all on TikTok!” But what's the reality? Where do you guys get news and information?

T.A.: Mostly Instagram, I would say. I just get memes on TikTok. I think people in my age group just kind of go with what's happening, and they see people telling them, “Get the vaccine.” And then they'll just believe that. Luckily I have a mom that does readings and all that stuff.

S.N.: I've probably lucked out the most ever, because in my school it’s quite academic. My mom has emphasized that at other schools and colleges, they definitely promote the vaccine. My school is very different. It’s less about getting the vaccine, more so about learning in school, because it's really academic.

But the reason why I feel like I lucked out is my peers around me, even though I'm unvaccinated—I have told a few of them—they don't see anything wrong with it. As for adults, I haven't told them because I do think that they would have reacted in a negative way. Well, a few of them. Maybe not all of them.

I think that since I'm younger, my friend group, we don't really focus on important things like the vaccine. We don't ever really talk about it. Because I feel like we're talking about our schoolwork. It’s something grownups talk about. But when it does come up, I know that they're vaccinated and I'm not, but they're usually okay with it. If somebody had a problem with me, I just wouldn't be their friend or we would just not talk to each other.

With the after-school programs, once I was excluded from one of their clubs, the director was really nice, and she allowed me to go to the clubs and she made sure that any future programs I went to were like, anyone can come, vaccinated or unvaccinated. So I've definitely lucked out because my community, or group of people, have definitely been more accepting as opposed to my brother or my mom’s.

A few teachers definitely are scared about getting COVID, so they emphasize wanting to get the vaccine. If I were to tell them I'm unvaccinated, that would definitely lead to some troubles. But I kind of remain secretive about it to my teachers. But as for my friends, they know. I don't think my whole school knows that I'm unvaccinated. I don't really tell everyone or express that I am.

Aimee: What about in college? Is it something that people are talking about, or is it a situation where everybody has made their decision and it's not a topic of discussion anymore?

T.A.: My friend group is from high school, but they don't really care that I'm unvaccinated, and they're in college. But as for specific people at my college, BMCC, I wouldn't really know because I've been online and that's not something really that gets talked about. Because most of my classes are learning classes, so we don't mention it. I don't know if they have an issue or not.

Aimee: You're saying that most of your friends are from high school. So you've been going to school online and you haven't gotten to know people that you're in college with as well?

T.A.: Yeah, pretty much. We're just there to get the degree or get the credit. We don't talk. Online you don't really get the personal kind of connections.

S.N.: Yeah, that's very true.

Aimee: You had that happening in high school too, right?

T.A.: Sort of, but when we started the Zoom calls in high school, it was with the people I had already been hanging out with for two and a half years. I knew them since freshman year.

S.N.: I went to my first year, freshman year of high school, online. So I didn't really make that many friends, but then when I went to school, that's when I socialized more.

Aimee: What was it like to start high school that way?

S.N.: I actually pretty much enjoyed it because I could wake up five minutes before class, go onto my computer, go into class, and at the end of the day, after taking some notes, I would just sleep or cook some food, and I could hang out with my family. We also have a cat, so I could snuggle with him. So I pretty much enjoyed it, but I do feel that you can't socialize that well online.

T.A.: She started making friends when she started going to school in sophomore year, in person. Because Zoom classes are just a bunch of kids who don't want to turn their cameras on.

S.N.: We never turn on our cameras.

Aimee: I've heard about this from teachers. Why didn't you like to turn your cameras on?

S.N.: Because we don't look well. We wake up five minutes before class. I don't look good at all.

T.A.: It's just because you're just sitting there, and the angle might not be right. You look rough. It's just not it, sometimes.

Aimee: Your poor teachers, though! I’ve talked to teachers and they said, “Yeah, we’re teaching and we can’t see anybody and we don't know if they're there.”

S.N.: My room was messy. I can't show that.

Aimee: Did you feel like you were missing out on an experience of getting to know people and do things with other people in person?

T.A.: When it first happened, when quarantine happened in my junior year, I was happy about that. I didn't like waking up at 5:45. Now—because I've been doing it since then—now I wouldn't mind going back to school. But it's been so long since I've been in person that I feel like I don't have the attention span for it. It's definitely an adjustment.

Aimee: What do you mean you don't have the attention span for it?

T.A.: In high school it was kind of like you do your usual daily stuff and school's still a couple hours long. But with my doing classes online, you get to pick your own schedule in college. So I take one class here and then I have a day in between. And so the idea of being in class in person—let's say you get all your classes in like two days. That's a lot of hours of listening. Because I haven't been in school in person with the teacher and everybody for a couple years.

S.N.: It's easier to get distracted when you're doing online schooling because when you're in school you have teachers near you. You have your friends near you to keep you on task sometimes. But when you're at home, you might have somebody running in the hallway, or like my brother in his room—I can hear his class going on when I'm in class. Or there's always ads on your computer screen. You could have another tab open to a video that you're watching. It's much easier to slouch off.

Oh yeah, but now I'm doing College Now classes. I took speech and I'm taking psychology.

Aimee: How is that?

S.N.: It's really easy. 

Mom: She can do it online. She’s at CUNY.

S.N.: I'm taking them online because I can't go to CUNY, because of the vaccine, in person. I don't mind it, but I could see how somebody else, like my teacher or professor, might. For speech, you kind of need to be in person. But we did it online, so I'd definitely say that when there were Internet issues, that's definitely rough. Especially for a speech class. I had so many issues with my technology.

Aimee: Like what?

S.N.: My professor wasn't keen on technology, so he doesn't know the texting on Zoom.

Aimee: Was that something that was an issue throughout the period when you were remote?

S.N.: Yeah.

T.A.: Yeah. All my teachers. Something like this happens and you go into lockdown, and then you get all these teachers that barely know how to use their smartboards stuck on Google Classroom and Zoom.

S.N.: They’d be on a page for like five minutes because they didn’t realize that they had another tab.

Aimee: I think there was a lot of getting up to speed that happened with teachers when they were suddenly shifted to online. But that probably threw a wrench in things for you guys.

S.N.: It does take, I think, learning a different approach, because it does seem like in order for you to learn something online, you have to do the work. When you're in person, they will literally go to you and say, “Why are you not doing this?” or “Stop talking.” Online you could just be texting your friends during class.

T.A.: Yeah. One of my teachers said, “You have to be the adult in the room.” If you're taking an online class, no one's there to stop you if you get distracted and look at your phone and miss what they just said. So it definitely requires a lot more responsibility on students’ behalf.

Aimee: Do you think that's how it's worked? Has it made you more responsible and attentive? Has it made you develop more skills?

T.A.: I'm doing better in school, like with my grades, but in class sometimes you can lose focus. It goes back to being the adult in the room. You’ve got to get yourself to listen to the teacher, because there's so many distractions. I've been getting really good at getting my homework and all those essays and stuff done because I'm just at home, but I wouldn't mind going back to school.

I kind of want to, but when I was in school I had like an eight-hour day, and that doesn't include transportation. And so when I got home I would just not want to do work because I'd been working all day in class. So online was definitely a change of pace. I've gotten more responsible with my work ethic, with grades, but if I go in person, I don't know if I would slip back into the same type of thing.

S.N.: For me specifically I think I would do well online or in person. I really do think it depends on the type of person and also where they live. Because if you live with parents who don't really focus, if you don't have a parent caring about your grades, then you might not do so well if you're doing it online. Also if you have a lot of distractions at home.

I think in terms of responsibility, I'm good doing it online or in person, but I think what really affected me was more so that I like a mixture of some classes online and some classes in person. Because when you're in person you can be more social, and then when you're online you can do the classes where you're a bit more focused in them. It’s just easier to commute to them because they're online. You don't have to go and do the transportation. I think there's positives and negatives for both types of learning, so I'd like a mixture.

Aimee: Do mandates limit the type of major or subject you can consider studying?

S.N.: I haven't decided on a major yet, but I do think, looking at it: Yes. Any major that I would choose, I think it would slightly affect. Because if you can't go to the school physically and you're doing it online . . . like my brother's doing art, so obviously you need to be there to do the art.

T.A.: I think the mandate has just slowed her ideas in general, because as a family we're kind of like: She's getting ready to apply, but what's the point of applying to a place if you can't go? And also she can't even go look at schools. So I think her thinking for a major or where she wants to go, it's just delayed in general because of that.

S.N.: In this city they definitely—more than other cities—they want you to get vaccinated. They have ads in the subway. I think obviously it's hard to go and choose a type of college. And I think that's why I'm still undecided about my major. Like what my brother said: When you have so many factors—like I don't know where I'm going to be living since my mom talks about moving to another state.

And then if some colleges don't require me to have a vaccine, but I might have to get tested every single week. I don't really like that because it'd just be a lot turmoil in my life. I get nose bleeds frequently and if they have the thing where you stick it up your nose, I do feel like that would be losing a lot of blood. It's just always uncomfortable—every single week going “Oh, a nosebleed.”

It's just impacted me because I don't know where I'm supposed to go to school, and that's the hardest part, because my friends talk about going to different schools and I don't think I can look at them.

Aimee: So I'm thinking back to high school: You should be taking certain exams to get test scores for college. Are you taking all the usual steps to apply to colleges?

S.N.: Yep. And more.

Mom: You’re doing SAT prep.

T.A.: She's even considering taking the ACT.

S.N.: I'm going to take the ACT, SAT, and I’m doing College Now.

Aimee: So you're taking all the usual steps, but you're just holding off on applications

S.N.: Yeah. I can't really tour any of the schools, so that’s probably why I’m undecided.

Aimee: Because normally you would go around and visit a bunch of places and then narrow down your list of places you want to apply to?

T.A.: Yeah. Her school had a trip to Boston University and she couldn't go, and mom and her were really upset about that because mom actually went to Boston University.

Mom: And Northeastern and Harvard. They were taking them to three schools in Boston.

T.A.: The school was taking your grade to other places, and she couldn't go to any of them.

Aimee: Was it an overnight thing? If you just wanted to go for a day tour, would they allow that?

S.N.: Nope. I don't believe so.

Aimee: Because you can't even be in the classroom. You can't visit campus facilities.

T.A.: And at my school, which classifies under CUNY, they just made it so that visitors—let's say you were a student there and you're vaccinated, and you have an unvaccinated friend. Basically a visitor can use the facilities there. Like let's say you want to go to the pool or something like that, or the weight room at the college, they're allowed in. But a student like me, an unvaccinated student, can't go to the school in general. So it's kind of wild. Wildly stupid.

Aimee: We’ve been seeing some schools lift their mandates. Columbia announced that recently. Do you have any sense or expectation of whether these requirements will stay in place?

T.A.: I'm hearing more issues arise within people that have taken the vaccines. I think hopefully more schools will do the right thing and realize that being unvaccinated doesn't really affect their wellbeing. I've had friends that have caught COVID and been vaccinated, and I caught COVID and got over the COVID quicker than them. I hope they realize that the vaccine doesn't really help.

And it's a choice. You shouldn't have your life butchered on a choice, and they should respect your choice. I think more schools, hopefully, will start realizing that and lifting the mandates.

Aimee: I wonder what you think about broader questions about the role of public health authorities and the role of government in setting policies. If there is a dangerous disease, how do you think public health officials should handle creating rules or giving advice?

T.A.: I think they kind of made it worse for citizens—like the government, president, whatever. They had—not me—but they had people freaking out about COVID. And at the beginning, yes, COVID was this sickness that took out old people, took out people with low immunities and stuff like that, but they didn't do their job in reassuring any average human being, with average health or good health, that COVID most likely wouldn't harm them too bad.

I think that's why the mandates were so effective, because they had everybody scared. And I think that was the wrong take. Because yes, COVID took out old people with heart issues and, well, just old people. Their bodies are weaker. But I don't think for teenagers and children and young adults that COVID was that harmful. I think they made everyone so fearful of it.

S.N.: I think it makes sense that if such serious disease occurs that then people get vaccinated. That definitely makes sense and logic. The point where this is a different situation is that my mom has emphasized that there's definitely reasons to not think that the vaccine is safe.

That's more so where I'm coming from, where if it's been proved that the vaccine has helped people tremendously, then I'd feel like yes, then most people would go and take the vaccine. But my mom has told me that some people became paralyzed. Some people have lost the ability to walk or they're in a wheelchair; some people have died. Some people are definitely having serious issues with their health.

I think when people talk about how it could potentially affect your health, it should be up to you whether or not you want to take it. Because the vaccine did come out pretty soon, like really, really quickly. How are you supposed to test if it's effective or not in such a short amount of time? If there's been reports that some people have gotten hurt, but they aren't really saying that, then yeah, that definitely makes you a bit suspicious of it.

I can understand where my mom is coming from, where she is worried for my health because, yeah, she's worried for her children to make sure that they're safe. I think it's okay to have the vaccine. It’s just more so that they mandated it that's not right, because it's forcing somebody else to do something. It's not really a choice anymore.

Aimee: You probably took other kinds of vaccines to go to school.

Mom: We stopped taking a lot of the vaccines, unfortunately. We were pressured to take the HPV, and that's when I started to become nervous, because I couldn't understand why the pediatricians were pushing me so hard to get them vaccinated for something so far into the future. And that's when I started to do my research on vaccination. I think they started at 12 with the HPV. And now we're finding out the damage that it's doing to people. So that means 10, eight to 10 years down the line.

The pediatrician was really pressuring me saying, “You have to do this! You have to do this!” And I’m like, I never heard of this vaccine. So that, and with my daughter, she's had a lot of allergic reactions, and I'm suspicious.

They never said it was the vaccine. It seemed like every year that she was vaccinated, she would break out in hives or rashes or her eyes would swell up. She's had a lot of problems. So that was the last one she took, the HPV. And her eyes—everything was swelled up in her head. I don't know if it's related, but it started making me suspicious.

S.N.: My mom said that one year they were late on announcing the flu shot, but that year we didn't get any sickness. When we kept on getting the flu shot, we would all get sick, apparently. And then one year we stopped taking the flu shot and then we were feeling good. Nobody got sick that year.

So that's a reason for why my mom got really suspicious, and my friends have said that the same thing happened in their families where they stopped taking the flu shot and then they never got the flu. They feel perfectly fine. So that's weird.

Aimee: So, I'm Gen X, and when I was growing up we had a lot fewer vaccines than your generation. There wasn't a lot of opposition to vaccines that I remember. Everybody kind of took them as a routine thing. [Mom], do you think people's skepticism had been building before the COVID vaccines because there were so many additions to the vaccine schedule?

Mom: Yeah. I think what happened with the HPV—sadly I broke down and I let the pediatrician vaccinate them with that, and I started talking about it with other parents, and I'm kind of like, “What's this vaccine? I've never heard of it.” And then other parents would say things like, “Yeah, why do they have to take a vaccine for something—especially for a male—that doesn't affect males, but affects females?” And it's not now, but it's for 10 or 20 years down the line.

That's kind of when I started to question vaccines, where I never really did before. Like a lot of people, I just said, you know, “I took the measles, mumps, rubella, I took the hepatitis.” I took all these vaccines . . . and there were so many of them. But with the HPV, that's when I started to say, “This doesn't make sense.” I couldn't understand why the pediatrician was just: “You have to do this, you have to do this, you have to do this!” and almost wouldn't let me out of the room until I agreed to get them vaccinated.

And then I found out like a year later, that kids were having—girls especially—were having problems in India and Africa, and I just kind of like, whoa. So when the COVID vaccines came out, I was sort of like: These are new, they're experimental, it's a new platform. They didn't really do any testing. And so that's where I was coming from.

The doctors never acknowledged that she would have had issues, that her allergic reactions were due to vaccines. It was just kind of coincidental that she would always be vaccinated at her yearly appointment, and then a month or two later, she would have this major breakout of something.

So I don't know. I can't say that it was the vaccine or not. I can just say that that's when I started to become suspicious. That's me though. That's not them. They were too little. They started them at, for the HPV, I think it was 10 or 12.

T.A.: It was right after I was 10.

Mom: Okay, so they started at 10 for a sexually transmitted virus. Is that right? I don't know. That didn't make sense. I thought, wait, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know anybody who had this. And on top of the problems with the kids in India and Africa, another parent just told me—and her daughter's studying to be a doctor—they just found out that the HPV doesn't even protect against three of the cancer viruses they were talking about they were supposed to protect against.

So, I don't want to take the time. You wanted to talk to them. Obviously, they're influenced by me. There's no question about it. I have very strong feelings about this. But that's probably why some kids are getting it and some aren't. We have a friend that the mom was okay with it. She has two sons, and one absolutely does not want to get vaccinated and the other one got vaccinated. She felt it was their decision, their choice.

Kids, they're going to be influenced by their parents at this stage. And that's why I want them to start to become more critical thinkers. That's what I'm hoping for. So let me get out in the back again.

Aimee: We hear a lot these days about this being a new era of infectious disease, that this pandemic will not be the last pandemic. So even if this round of mandates is lifted from schools, this seems like an issue that hasn't been resolved.

So I'm wondering how younger generations are thinking about resolving it and what they think the government's role should be, if any. Do you think there should be mandatory vaccines for school? Are you rethinking how public health should function? When you grow up and are a working adult, how do you want things to work?

T.A.: I think ultimately it should just come down to choice. You can listen to the government if you want to, but if you don't, I don't think you should have things like education . . . when the mandates were super heavy, you couldn't go to movie theaters, you couldn't go to dinner. You could go outside, but you couldn't do anything that required that you go inside, and they treated you like you weren't a human being.

I don't think that was right. I think it should just come down to choice, and then both sides can spread their information or what they think, but it should just come down to choice.

S.N.: In order for a vaccine to be required, I think it should be after years and years of research, of proving nothing negative will happen to you. Or if something negative does happen, everyone knows the symptoms of taking that vaccine. If it's required, then everyone should be aware of the symptoms that you'll get and make sure that it's not too big.

Mom: We call that informed consent. You could say, “I'm willing to risk the heart attack. I'm willing to risk a swelled arm.” You have to decide what's the relative risk you want to take, versus the disease.

S.N.: In order for a vaccine to become mandatory, I think it should be just if a vaccine has been proven for years and years and years that you won't get that affected from it—you get maybe a slight headache, and that’s it.

Aimee: My parents' generation was affected by some really serious diseases, like polio, and measles, which can also be very serious. The argument for making vaccines for those diseases mandatory for kids was that it would take the infectious disease out of circulation. So even though there are going to be some people the vaccine just doesn't work with or who can't take it, if you have enough people take it, it will stop the illness from spreading.

I think our parents accepted that because they'd seen those terrible diseases that came before the vaccines, and they thought of the vaccines as something that you might have a one in a million chance of having an adverse reaction to.

When I've talked to college students now, some have made a similar argument about COVID vaccines. They have thought that would take COVID out of circulation, or at least reduce transmission. Obviously, they didn’t take COVID out of circulation, but I'm wondering if you're saying that there's kind of a middle ground, for well-studied, well-established vaccines to be mandatory in schools. Or if you don't accept that kind of argument, and you want a completely informed consent based system, even for school kids.

T.A.: I think if they want to make it mandatory, they should make sure the vaccine does its job, because we've had—I don't know how many there are right now because I haven't been getting them—but there was the first one and now there's all these boosters, and I know that with the flu shot, you take one a year and it's supposed to help you.

But these don't help. I've had friends that have been boosted and some of them have even become suspicious, because it's like: “Why have I got to get one of these every semester, and then people in my class still catch COVID? My professors catch COVID.” I think, like S.N. said, they should make sure it works before they mandate it. Because I have heard of people dying and stuff like that, or just reactions.

Aimee: So if you had something proven to be effective and pretty safe, you would be okay with it being a requirement?

T.A.: Yeah. And then that's also what I don't get about some people in society, because they're just like, “Get it. It works.” What do you mean by that? It doesn’t work.

S.N.: I'm just saying, if you have any reason to mandate something, it has to be a good one. It has to be safe. That's pretty much it. I think that's pretty basic though.

Aimee: So are you planning to kind of play it by ear with colleges?

S.N.: Yeah, pretty much.

T.A.: They have taken down the job mandates as of last November. So her idea was that she could just work and then maybe, hopefully, something will work out, because if she gets good grades in high school, she can always just reapply then. She's got the good grades.

Mom: Tell her what your plan is.

S.N.: Oh, I have like 30 different plans at this point. Since the future's quite unknown, you have to be prepared for everything. So if every single college in New York City starts to go and not require the vaccine, then that means, “Yay!” That's the best win-win situation for me, where then I can go to any college.

But of course you then have to think about negatives. If some don't, then yeah, I can go and apply to certain colleges. If worse comes to shove, we might move or I might just take a gap year and work or take a gap year and move. I'm open to gap years or a part-time school / part-time job. Nothing's really for certain though.

Aimee: I guess if you can live at home for a while, you have a little bit of flexibility in what you do. If you put off college for a year, would it matter if you apply later?

T.A.: I think as long as you have good grades in high school, you can apply at any point. But in general, you can apply in the summer or you can apply for the winter and you start in a different semester. But I think either way she can kind of just pick up.

S.N.: I'm open to taking a gap year. I don't really see anything wrong with it. It makes sense if things aren't steady.  Obviously if I've taken a gap year for like 10 years, I don't think I'll be going to college, but I'm okay with having one to two, even three years. But I think past that, I'm most likely not going to college, because that's too long for me.

Aimee: Why do you want to go to college? What do you want to get out of it? A lot of people just do it as a matter of course, but some people think of it as more of a preparation for a career, and some people think of it as more about developing yourself as a human being. Some have really specific fields that they want to go into.

S.N.: My point of view is, it's kind of mandatory in New York because in order to get a job, or at least a good one, you need a college degree of some sort. Plus my mom wishes that we go to college.

T.A.: Yeah, there's a story. Grandma, she dropped out in high school and then she was like a nurse for the Red Cross—a blood drawer. She worked at that for years, and then she got to the highest rank she could get without a college degree. But if she had a college degree, she could have made twice what she made. And what's funny about it is she knew the stuff, but it's just because she didn't have that one little thing.

S.N.: Isn't there also a stigma? Like if you don't have a college degree, automatically in New York City you’re kind of considered like, “Oh, you didn't get a good education.”

T.A.: Definitely in the job world it helps to have that degree, and that's why my mom wants us to have it, and I want it too.

Aimee: Do you have an idea of what you want to do after school?

T.A.: I have an idea, but not a big one. Just because I don't even know where I'm going next year, or if I'm going, but my reasoning for going is to learn more and improve more and get connections. But now that I've kind of branched out, I have a pretty flexible idea of what I can do. I could just work for myself, if that makes sense, or I could do something else.

Aimee: But you want to work in the arts?

T.A.: Yes.

Aimee: Does going to school online make it seem like more of a reasonable possibility that you would work on your own?

T.A.: Sort of. I can work on my own, freelance, but going the extra mile and finishing my four-year would give me the connections. And then maybe I could make a lot more money, even just freelancing, because I'd have connections.

Aimee: Are there ways that you think this whole experience with the pandemic and the mandates have changed your generation? I don't know if you have enough distance on it to be able to say, but do you feel that way?

S.N.: I mean, the obvious one is that, like my professor, he keeps on telling us how due to COVID our generation is much more depressed. Or we have more issues, I guess, especially social issues.

Aimee: Do you think that's true?

S.N.: Yeah. In a way. Yeah.

T.A.: I don't know. Could you restate it?

Aimee: Can you see a way in which the pandemic and the mandates have changed your generation—your group of friends and people that you know your age.

T.A.: It hasn't changed my friends. Like, we're still friends. I guess it has changed me because I don't go to school in person. I don't have that college experience yet. But also, I've heard in community college, it's not all that anyways, because it's basically the same thing it is online—just everybody there to get their two-year to go to a four-year.

S.N.: I think it's hard for me to understand what I'll do in the future. That's the major issue for me, because I don't know what I'm going to do in the future. I have—well, more so my mom has the stress on her shoulders of what we will do in the future.

And then for me, my teachers are definitely like, “Go to a really great college! Maybe Ivy League!” Or like, “Work really hard!” When you're in that type of environment, it's kind of hard to be motivated, because you're like, “Oh, so I'm going to do a lot of work to go to these colleges, but then I don't know if I can apply to the college or if I can even get in because of my vaccine status.”

Aimee: So you just can't plan things the way you would expect to be able to.

S.N.: Yep.

Mom: What about your friends, T.A.? You just don't even talk about the future at all?

T.A.: One of my friends is just working. He's not going to school anymore. But I don't think COVID really had anything to do with that because the vaccine doesn't really affect their life, because they have it. I'm not sure if they've been getting boosted.

Aimee: S.N., you were talking about your teacher saying that your generation has more problems. Does it seem like you guys have had it tougher, that it's had a harsh effect on your mental state? And is it something you think you’ll just go through and get past, or is it something that will shape your lives?

S.N.: Good question. For the whole COVID-19 situation, it definitely does impact everyone. It depends on the type of person if it impacts them much more than if this whole situation didn't occur. Because for me, I'm quite flexible. I was totally okay with going fully online.

Some students might need the social interactions to get by. I'm just thinking of other people, where they might commit the unthinkable or they're just really sad all day, or they're addicted to their phones so they can't really do schoolwork. I just definitely think that I wasn't really affected due to COVID, but other people have been, and I feel sad for them. Even though I haven't really been affected by it, I think in general it has affected my generation.

Aimee: People my age, when we look back at our childhoods and compare them to yours, we didn't have all the technology you have. We didn't have the Internet or cell phones, so we were not constantly connected to other people.

I think people my age look at you guys, and you look like you don't have the same kind of freedom that we had. We weren't constantly accessible to other people, and we had a freedom to be out on our own and not to have a lot of restrictions put on us.

So people my age often look at your generation and think, “Wow, they must feel really restricted. They must feel like they have no freedom to just go out and do their own thing, and not be constantly connected to something that is watching them or making demands of them.”

But I don't know if you feel that way.

S.N.: I’m not addicted to social media. My brother and my mom are. So I feel like I'm in the rare percentage of kids.

T.A.: But you still have technology.

S.N.: Okay. Yes, I do have to use technology. It's impossible not to be addicted to your electronics for this generation. Before, all of my homework assignments used to be on paper, where you just do pencil, paper, and hand it into the teacher. But now after COVID-19, most of my assignments have been online, where I take a picture of my work or I do it digitally.

Like on my computer, I have a Google Doc, I can make a Google Slides, everything's online, and then I turn it in on Google Classroom digitally. We have some paper assignments, but not nearly as much as we used to. That definitely has changed.

T.A.: I'm definitely lucky that I was born in 2002, so that technology wasn't huge while I was growing up. Not until I was about 10. So I kind of had my younger childhood not around technology besides TV and the computer here and there.

But definitely if I were to have a kid, I'm not getting them a phone at 10. I think getting the phone at 10 allows you to get addicted, because after school it's kind of just there, like in the middle of the night when you can't fall asleep it’s also kind of just there.

S.N.: Yeah. Three-year-olds get phones already, and they just watch shows every single day, and then it's setting you up to be reliant on it, especially if you get the notification: Ding! And then you instantly check your phone.

T.A.: I think that technology is good and bad in that sense because, for me at least, and for most teenagers—except for S.N., I guess—TikTok sort of carried COVID through quarantine. We were all stuck at home, but people were making funny videos. So I do think it has had its negative effects and it's had its good effects.

Aimee: Do you feel technology is something that restricts your freedom or is oppressive in any way?

S.N.: Yeah, it's one factor.

T.A.: I guess so, because there's certain things that have changed. I used to draw on paper as a kid, but now I kind of love working on Procreate or something like that. So it’s definitely become more addictive. But when I'm with my friends, I'm never on it. I feel the freedom of just being with your friends, and then when I'm out with family, I have the freedom of being out with family.

S.N.: What do you mean in terms of freedom? Could you specify?

Aimee: I think just not being constantly connected to other people. You're just doing your own thing in person wherever you’re doing it, and no one else is demanding your attention. You're not under surveillance through anything.

All of the kinds of surveillance technologies that exist now, whether it's through your phone or cameras everywhere—or the way restrictions like the vaccine mandates were enforced through digital technology, through phones—we didn't have any of that stuff.

T.A.: Okay. Well then I do think it is sort of restrictive.

S.N.: Yeah, definitely.

T.A.: A lot of my friends post everything they do. But I guess the reason I don't really feel restricted is because I don't like to post. I do use it, but I can go without it and I don't like posting and I can go without watching.

S.N.: With my friends, some of them might go to school and then instead of talking they'll be like, “Oh, wait one second. I'm texting my friend.” And that might happen for a good 15 minutes. Most kids, nowadays, if you want to really talk and get to know them, you don't really talk. You more so text or you call or you join their Snapchat or you join their Instagram post or you keep on liking everything. We really talk about mundane things, nothing really too interesting.

I think that most people of my generation don't really have the sense of freedom that you had when you were a kid. Like with my mom, she used to go and be able to hang out and then just come back at five or six for dinner.

Mom: When the street lights turned on.

S.N.: I think it's not just your phone, but also my mom talks about safety. So if the streets aren't safe, then she can instantly call me.

Mom: I have to admit that's my problem, and I'm from your generation or before. I have to know they've arrived at school.

S.N.: She tracks us.

Mom: Yeah, I watch to make sure they're—well not him so much anymore, because he's always here—but I want to know that she's made it to school. Where, I can't imagine my parents: I just took off, went to school. I guess if they didn't get a call from the school, I made it. How did they live with that kind of . . .

S.N.: Fear?

Mom: Yeah, they probably had anxiety, but not the same amount I have. I don't know if it's because we live in New York City or if it's because I can track them and say, “Where are you?”

And then if something goes down, if the Internet goes down or the wireless goes down and I can't find them, it’s like, “Where are you?” I’ve just got to know, especially now with her, I have to know she's in her building and then I'm okay for the day, you know? But that's me. That’s not them.

Aimee: I think that's like every parent. Now you have the ability to make sure your kids are safe, so everyone wants to do that.

Mom: I tell them all the time about how free I felt when I was their age that I could do anything I wanted. I could go get a part-time job, I could go to college, go away to college. I didn't have to think about, “Do I have to do this? Do I have to do that?” You could try anything. You could go out. I can't imagine the way they've lived, especially the last year, especially in New York City. I didn't have all these restrictions that they have.

I probably, as a parent, obsess over it more, because they only know what they know. They don't know what it's like to be free to go do whatever you want, and this is their life. It’s a good question—how this is going to impact the whole generation. I wonder that myself.

T.A.: Yeah, I do think people have gotten all too comfortable with their phones and stuff like that.

S.N.: Yeah. I'm just imagining a power outage. Like what will happen? It would be madness.

Aimee: Do you guys feel like you would handle that okay, if the technology were put on ice for a while? If there were a power outage and the Internet went down, do you feel that would be a situation you're prepared to handle?

T.A.: Yeah. I can go without my phone. We could play a board game.

S.N.: I think in some ways yes. But in some ways, no, because if there's a power outage, that means some of my friends, I wouldn't be able to know if they're safe. And also, is it just a power outage? Is something else going to happen? Now I'm getting a little too serious here, but if it's something like a war . . .

If there's just a power outage, it'd be more so that I am worried if other people are doing okay. And also, how will we really survive? Because during the nighttime whenever there's a power outage, people go crazy and there's chaos in the streets; usually people steal. And also some people might be heavily reliant on their phones, so then they might become suicidal.

T.A.: Really?

S.N.: Well yeah, because think about it: A lot of people already nowadays are being suicidal. To the point where their whole lives are on their phone, and that's kind of scary. So I'm more worried about how everyone else will react. If people can't go on the phone, that's going to be really weird, because some parents rely on their phones to keep their children entertained. I've seen that happen, especially on a train.

What if you're stuck in the train with a bunch of random people that you don't know? It could be good. Maybe you’ll all connect to each other and be like, “We're all in this together.” But it could also go really bad. I'm thinking back to Netflix shows.

Aimee: You’re talking about scary scenarios from Netflix. What is the biggest worry of your generation for what could happen in the future?

T.A.: I guess a zombie apocalypse.

Aimee: That spans the generations. We all worry about that.

T.A.: Well, interestingly enough, there’s this game that got turned into a show, and now everybody knows it. It’s based off the zombie apocalypse. It's usually a source of memes or jokes, but they post news stuff every once in a while.

The disease that happened in the game/show is a real disease, but it would never affect humans. They tried to make it seem like it was coming to humans and it was just like false advertisement. So that's also interesting.

S.N.: I'm trying to think what would be my biggest worry, because I have many worries, so I don't really know how to narrow it down.

Aimee: What about optimism? What do you look forward to?

S.N.: I look forward to hanging out with my friends, also hanging out with my family. We definitely bond through technology, watching movies. My mom texts me cat memes. My brother texts me Star Wars memes.

T.A.: I do not.

S.N.: Yeah you do.

Mom: What do you look forward to in the future?

T.A.: Every summer my friend comes back and then we all hang out in a big group, so that'll be fun. I look forward to hopefully going to school in person again, at least for a couple classes, and getting some sort of social life back, even though I don't mind not having too big of one. And then hopefully making a lot of money.

Aimee: Why is that important right now?

T.A.: Because I like money.

Aimee: Why is that important in your life?

T.A.: I just want to be successful.

Aimee: It’s always good to have enough money. I guess I was asking big picture, like what are you optimistic about life being like 10 years from now for you?

T.A.: Hopefully mandates obviously are gone. I guess, 30 . . . Living on my own, either in an apartment or a house. Maybe a kid. I don't know.

S.N.: Definitely to build new relationships with people, like friends, possibly a boyfriend. But also in terms of a job, to make good money. I do want to travel though, but I'm okay with traveling more so when I'm older rather than now. I kind of just want to do more fun events.

Aimee: What about the world in general? Do you have any thoughts about how you'd like to see the world change for the better?

T.A.: Like I said before, no mandates. No wars going on. Like, why can't everybody just chill out? A good government. Right now they're back to mandates. They're enforcing something that's been known to kill, injure, or ruin people's lives. Hopefully that's not there.

S.N.: I want everybody to actually like, or at least be interested in, their job. I feel like that's a huge issue. A lot of people might just be doing their job solely for money. And while that's great because you're making more money, that doesn't mean that you're doing a quality job, that you're actually helping the world.

If you are just doing the basic that you can do, then it doesn't really lead to such a great environment. And plus, if you don't like your job, then most likely you'll do a poor job at it. That's what I want, and that's what I want for everyone—to be at least slightly happy doing their job every single day. That would just lead to better results.

This interview was lightly edited for clarity and readability.
What does that mean? It means I take out some “um”s and “you know”s, but I don’t change anything of substance.

About the New York Mandate Podcast

The New York Mandate Podcast is an ongoing series of conversations exploring the costs and consequences of vaccine mandates in New York City. I talk with workers, students, and parents who have been directly affected by the mandates, as well as legal and policy experts.

In late 2021, the City introduced a series of requirements for workers and to receive a COVID-19 vaccine. These requirements were put in place through executive orders issued by the administration of former mayor Bill de Blasio. They covered nearly all workers in New York City, in both the public and private sectors. They also barred unvaccinated adults, including parents, from schools.

Current mayor Eric Adams kept the mandates in place until November 1, 2022 for the private sector and February 10, 2023 for City workers, and has encouraged private employers to put their own vaccine requirements in place.

The views expressed in the New York Mandate podcast are the personal opinions of the people speaking, and are not intended to provide medical or legal advice.

Join the Conversation

Have you lost your job, been put on leave, or lost opportunities to work as an independent contractor as a result of your decision not to comply with a New York vaccine mandate? Did you take a vaccine against your wishes in order to keep your job? Please get in touch with me at NYMpodcast@protonmail.com.